Dragon Voice Forum > General Discussion > Cloning
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daylife
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

to think there'd be a post about cloning in a manga forum... interesting..

i major in physiology... we deal a fair bit with animals.. and when i mean animals, we actually kill them off in the end despite our "ethical" perspective in operating on animals for our experiments... u'd think the RSPCA would have a say on using animals for clonings.. gees..

with humans? well, firstly, god made man and woman, and he breathed life into them, not animals... of course i don't have an issue with experimenting on animals... on humans? plenty... we have a soul, that an animal doesn't... animals have a spirit that allows them to breathe and live, but they don't have a soul... unlike humans, we have a conscience, we question things, we seek, we learn... even wonder why we're on top of the food chain??

have any of you even considered where all our up-to-date scientific breakthroughs even come from? history of mutilating and cutting up humans, all the way from the egyptians, greeks, da vinci and even WWII... ever worked in an operating theatre? do you even know what happens during a bypass operation? it isn't a pretty sight...

to create a genetically flawless community rid of diseases? think gattaca... genetically altering DNA... yeah... playing god.. sure... judgement day'll definitely come before that time ever comes...

when dolly was created, she died prematurely due to developed diseases... i wouldn't be surprised if the original outlived her... i haven't read any articles about other cloned animals..

every freaking research article i've read about the human body, even about animals always, ALWAYS says that FURTHER RESEARCH IS REQUIRED... scientific research is always risky, cos no matter how many animal research we do, the question still lies within the human body...

and it's not even just the body.. how about the mind? the memories... what exactly are you cloning? sure the human genome's been mapped out, and the size of it was unexpectedly smaller than was estimated.. and now they're talking about all this "violence" genes, "obesity" genes, and "depression" genes...

the fact that science is questioning the possibility, is too freaking risky!! and i support any government that does not allow cloning...

for the sake of scientific breakthrough?? baaah... my arse...

Post Thu 11 May, 2006 07:04 PM   
linachan
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

@daylife:
I don't think animals don't have a soul, I don't get why people look at themselves like they are ''better'' than animals. We were evolved from apes, so actually are we evolved from some mindless beings who only live and breathe? How could it be possible that we have a mind and apes/animals don't? Though I must confess that I know nothing about the research that animals can't ''think''.

Yeah I also heard Dolly died earlier than usual, so that's one of the reasons I'm against cloning.
You'll never know what happens if a human gets cloned...would he die much more earlier too...will he be sick in his mind... I think it's kinda freaky, why do we need cloning anyway. But I think that when cloning is better developed in the future, they would consider it as the most normal thing in the world. Because I think that there are things which were really ''scary'' for the ppl of the past.

I totally agree, though I can't see the REAL benefit of it, cloning limbs is maybe a benefit but you'll never know if they are of good quality or not because cloned animals died earlier than usual, so this could also be for the cloned limbs, that they do something to the human body.

Post Fri 12 May, 2006 04:41 PM   
daylife
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

what's ur scientific proof that we evolved from apes?

firstly, that's a theory... not a "fact"... and the person who proposed the hypothesis, darwin, finally admitted it was wrong.. it's not that science states it's a "fact"... science has never had any basis for any of its information of scientific breakthrough based on "facts"... everything's based on falsifiable theories... paradigm shifts... "well, if the evidence supports the hypothesis, then based on that, therefore this is this... blah blah blah.. "

even tho we 90++% of our DNA is similar to apes... so is 50% of our DNA to amoeba... and whatever percentage of our DNA to dogs and every single living being... only a small percentage makes us uniquely different.. but what a difference!!

BUT it does not mean we share the same values.. the same ideals... ever been to a zoo? if we truly evolved from apes.. we are putting our own ancestors behind cages... how is that in any way respecting our background? our genetic lineage?

science requires evidence, and in order to have evidence, we need a set "rules"/"basis" in order to justify them... with dalton's atoms, we wouldn't be able to understand chemistry, biochemical functions within the body.. drugs, pharmacy... hormones etc... however, take that away and the whole system falls apart... newton's laws of physics, and einstein's e=mc2.. take that away and the whole system falls apart...

right now, evolution is the basis for a whole chunk of scientific information.. if that falls apart, so does a whole chunk of our textbooks... pretty interesting..

u don't see why ppl think we're better than animals? i don't understand why ppl don't see that we ARE better... dang, it's like another topic altogether.. lol..

god breathed life into man, and was made in the image of god... animals weren't... god didn't breathe life into them... not that they aren't alive.. god brought adam to the animals to find a helper... a servant...

i eat meat... meat... tastes fantastic too... i had some chicken, lamb and goat just now...

anyway, back to cloning... why am i against it? firstly, it's playing god.. and it's not like humans can't do so... just consider the consequences... it's like the tower of babel all over again... and all god needs to do is just judge them... dang, i fear for those scientists...

another thing, they're dealing with life... i mean LIFE... it's not just slaughtering for meat.. it's life... the baby they're aborting for the sake of science could be the next president.. the next revolutionary... the next hero... your soulmate for all i know... ur future best mate... in order to produce a clone... what if it screws up? what's gonna happen to a defect? if a mother bears a baby who is a clone defect? how is that gonna weigh on the mother? another abortion? so whose responsibility when it screws up? the funding, the sponsors, the time consumption... expectations... papers... gaaa... wth...

Post Fri 12 May, 2006 08:14 PM   
linachan
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

Yup that's true too ^^ but if we did... that would be weird that we would have a mind and they don't...

I don't care if humans are better than animals or not, what's the difference if someone would think that?

I don't really believe that some kind of God breathed life in humans/animals/living beings... I think it's a ll made up by the humans who WANT to have something to explain their background like ''Darwins theory''. So why would they be our servants.. why would we need them as servants?

I love to eat meat too, but animals do too, like lions for example...

Well I don't really care if they're playing ''God'' or not, but I do care that they are playing with life... I believe the mother would get a trauma or something like that when the child is born dead, or so...
Does somone know the reason here WHY ppl clone things? What is the benefit of it? Except the fact that you could clone limbs using it...

Post Sun 14 May, 2006 02:17 PM   
daylife
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

animals as servants? lessee... domesticated animals come to mind? farm animals come to mind? raised and bred chicken, cows, goats, sheeps, dogs, birds, horses etc... ever had wild animals for lunch? kinda rare nowadays don't u think?

scientific reasons for cloning? hmm... possibly the genetic knowledge involve in cloning? probably inherited diseases... altho i would think full human cloning would involve too much time and money in that case...

possibly a way to manipulate life? or human body? considering the amount of invasive techniques now to find out if a babies "healthy" or not.. i mean u can even choose the gender of test tube babies.. people have the option of abortion if the baby has a chance of developing an incurable disease or has down syndrome... not that i support that either...

extending life? generally all hopsitals and science aims to further increase quality of life and therefore extending... hopes of reaching immortality maybe? there're loads of ppl willing to fork out fortunes for that reason alone..

i wouldn't be surprised if further research of cloning may lead to alternative treatments for diseases in the future...

another possibility would probably be cloning animals and plants for food or various other reasons... long term advantage may be that it'll be cheaper...

considering u believe we come from apes? do u want something to explain ur background too?

science is inquisitive... unfortunately it has a very conservative and narrow mind set... it has a "way" of doing things... and its biggest flaw is that it even questions its own evidence and findings.. impressive huh..? lol

generally science is filled with theories/thoughts/ideas made up by man, and later proved/disproved... thus the reason for its narrow perspective..

the fact that i believe something more powerful or a "higher power" is involved with our existence... well, seems more believable...

Post Mon 15 May, 2006 02:24 PM   
linachan
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

wow so many scientific stuff @__@

hmm there you have a point, but I do think they have a mind, maybe a less developed than ours... because I think that they will know who's your boss or who's mean or something...can't really explain what I mean.

cloning ppl to discover inherited diseases is just wasting life... why create a life who will be ''born'' diseased... uurgh what ppl do to discover things...

yeah, the last chapter did in biology involved a lil with the possibility to abort a baby if you discover it has a disease. I'm against it too, because you kill the baby before it could ''see the wide world''. But on another way, the baby may suffer a lot because of the disease...

Cloning to use for extending life...never thought of that, do you mean cloning yourself when you're about to die?
I'm not really for extending life, or turning immortal. I bet the whole earth will be really full and all the sources will run out.. And another reason, I think you won't look really well/your body isn't in a really good condition when you'll turn 110 or I've seen some photos of such old ppl and they
don't look sooo good...

cloning food... wow what an idea, but I don't really like it (though there will be more food...,) the thought of eating something cloned, though I only have that feeling with animals and not with plants O.o

I don't really care which background we have, I won't be unhappy if I didn't knew or something.

yup, but that's science, ne... questioning everything around you Razz

There can be some higher power, but my life is carefree atm so I don't care really... (A couple of months ago my friends and I talked about paranormal things like a higher power, it was kinda creepy to talk about paranomral things, especially when I began to cry for no reason when we were talking...) *hmm someone could open a paranormal topic...*

Post Thu 18 May, 2006 07:21 PM   
Rin no Rekka
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Joined: 03 Apr 2006
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

(After reading most of the long reply)

About the different opinions in using animal as experiment ---> I think this is very complex. In my eyes if you kill animals then its ok. After all, the animal holds no value to me (since i have no attachment to this animal that i dont know). Theres lots of animal killing in this world. Too much for me to be mad about "just another". For example : lizards, bugs are killed because their existance is disgusting to some people (im one of them). Mosquitoes, lions, bees, snakes are killed because they are dangerous at times. Cows, goats, chickens, ducks are killed for survival and becoz they are delicious (I happen to love food). Theres lots more which can flood 3 - 4 pages of this topic and im lazy to do that. Its not coz im cold hearted towards animal. Dont get me wrong. I kill lots of ants coz they were on my desk computer crawling on my hand. What i can't tolerate is when their lives are being toyed with. Its ok to use them as servant, its ok to use them as food source but its not ok to tortured them and toy with their lives. I disagree with cloning but i think its ok for them to use animal becoz my thinking is its better them than us. But what i dont like is the goal that is trying to be create in cloning and the after effects. Theres lots of other experiments in this world that benefit us by using animals as a guine pig. Those experiment not only benefit us, it is part of our daily life. (Dont ask me what experiment coz i dont know the exact thing >.> Im also lazy to do a research on such thing). Given example a kid kills off a kitten and the woman who killed the kitten with her high heel shoes. It will be the woman's case we will feel she is very cruel, she has no right to do that, its awful, she shouldn't kill animal, animal is a living being. Thats how i see it too. The kid though becoz he knows still young people would just worry how he grows into an adult but never have in their mind the feeling the same feeling they had with when the woman kills.

About humans are better than animal : I have to agree on this. The world is a harsh place. Its all about survival. Kill or be killed. We burn down trees (which is a living creature) in order to make place to be made our homes. Can't be help its that way. Not to say animal are soulless, i think they have and a tiny bit of mind to think perhaps. If they dont, they wouldn't take care of their babies. Its not looking down on animal. Its just selfishness. Everyone is selfish. Even if we were to care for every single living creature on this earth, it would be too hard. Just living near the trees where there lots of trees is hard enough becoz ur trampling on small bugs or stuff. Eventually animals will be killed, plants will be destroyed even by living near the trees not clearing the place to build homes. Its inevitable.

About darwin and ape evolution : I personally dont believe in that theory. For one if we did evolve from ape. Why are they still apes? Why aren't anymore apes evolve into human? Why did it stop evolving? I wont believe it until i see concrete proofs and evidence.

reason for cloning : Desire are endless. Especially those with power and money. They have more desire than commoners becoz they actually can do it much easier. For example politic leaders. They are too consume in their idea to rule the country, 2 countries, 5 countries, 1 big nation, THE WHOLE WORLD that they need more times to acomplish that. Even if they did accomplish that in their lives, its not enough coz they simply want more. Desire are endless as i said before. So they want immortility. Extend their lives for the sake of feeding their desire. In scientist case, they want their names to be big. Many of them wants that more than anything. Becoz of that they would squeeze their brains out for idea and 1st do it on animals (experiments and such). But possibilities are endless as well. Theres always if it work on animal would it work on human?. If it work on one human, would it work on every human?. Thats what make a mad scientist. I might be thinking too far about cloning but i think this is one of the consequences or after effect of such experiments. Just another possibilities.

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Post Thu 25 May, 2006 02:07 PM   View user's profile Send private message  
white_queen
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

i don't know if this part of the board was over w/ or not...but...
i believe it was Freud (ha! going back to psych...=.Speak to the handWink that said, in a nutshell, that humans are no better than a tree...or something like that.
we are not as magnificent as many people think. we do not contribute to the world more than a common animal.
depressing? sure. but that doesn't mean w/in the human community, you can't make a difference.

well, i've heard that animals don't get bored...
and also...trees, mountains, etc do not have a soul/spirit.
a blade of grass will not think "ow" if you pluck it out of the ground.
the cells will be damaged for sure, but there isn't a...being, i guess you would call it.

so i think the whole thing is 50/50...
humans aren't really that high and mighty as we'd like to think.
but what makes us different (everything is unique...) is that we have a conscience and soul/spirit...
that's all i hafta say on that...

animal testing:...meh...blurg...i wish you didn't have to kill it...but that's me being an idealist. i suppose there are things you can't test or see w/o killing a young animal...but i'd personally prefer to use ones that have died due to disease or needed to be put to sleep.
you need to combine idealism and realism:
being idealistic all the time will eventually get you depressed, b/c all those things you wish/want to happen won't. plus, you'll be unreasonable.
being realistic all the time will hinder you from reaching out...striving for goals. if everyone stayed realistic, we wouldn't move forward...
so you have to have that balance...or harmony, if you will between the two.

basically, do what you gotta do, but find alternatives when you can.

Post Thu 25 May, 2006 09:55 PM   View user's profile Send private message   AIM Address MSN Messenger
jayjo
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

i dont think cloning is a good or a bad thing, right now we wouldnt exactly know the effects and the possible outcomes of that procedure. but i thought at first it'll be cool to know that you yourself were on a different place at the same time, looks like yourself, acts like you but then maybe i'll get freakout at first if we come face-to-face and stuffs. datll be weird or cool... anyways, whatever come what may.

Post Sun 28 May, 2006 01:16 PM   
Sai
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

Okay, on a lighter side; a random question, with a connection to cloning:
If you had sexual intercourse with your own clone, could it be considered masturbation or would it be sex??


More seriously, I think that; in general; people go too far in the name of Science. And the whole animal testing smallavah; well; when you say that you don't care about the death of an animal you don't have any attachement to, I think it's a little ... strange. Only because the same thing could be said about humans you don't know.
I'm not comparing humans and animals, because despite what the RSPCA says, animals are nothing more than animals.
But; yeah.
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Post Mon 19 Jun, 2006 06:28 PM   View user's profile Send private message  
white_queen
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

(after reading more of this page)
humans share a common ancestor w/ the ape.
we did not evolve FROM apes.
big technicality.
alsooooo--
what sets us apart from other animals
is our ability to utilize fire.
all other animals are afraid of fire.

Post Fri 30 Jun, 2006 05:06 AM   View user's profile Send private message   AIM Address MSN Messenger
manfa
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by lele:
woah, brainy topic.

well, i'm anti human cloning, but all for organ cloning. weird eh? but i do feel that if we can clone a vital organ needed to survive (other than the brain, since it's not really doable) and help prolong the lifespan of mankind. on the other hand, human cloning is not entirely possible as one can never and SHOULD never clone a soul or memories. so there.


i feel the same way as lele...like i dont believe in cloning...but all for organ cloning =/ its just reali complicated...but i myself would feel rather weird if cloning was actuali happening...

i just dont like animals being tested... i mean its testing is required as medicine saves millions of people from disease...but actuali cloning an animal...ah...T_T

Post Tue 01 Aug, 2006 07:46 AM   
I_angel
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

So basically either we evolved from apes or we were given life by god?

I am against human cloning, I think it is cruel for both the clone and the human who is cloned. It is not even certain that the clone will have a soul or memories, if the clone thinks he's the original? That will be a real mental torture.

On the other hand, for a bone narrow or organs cloning, to save a human life or find cures to diseases, it 'sounds' like a great idea, but is it really so? Experiences are always done, nothing is accurately certain, the human body might to a certain point rejects the cloned organs, it might even became a worst problem than it actualy is.

Post Sun 06 May, 2007 10:06 AM   
papercut
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weird topic  Reply with quote  

I'm against cloning. That sheep (you know... that sheep ...) is the only one to live out of lke 300. and it died earlier than the original sheep.
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CambrieGreen
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Re: Cloning  Reply with quote  

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